中文音节不多（以及为什么这很有趣）-pg电子麻将胡了
中文音节不多（以及为什么这很有趣）译文简介
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this is exactly what i’ve been trying to explain for so long. my friends ask me why can’t we just write in pinyin wǒ shì zhōngguórén can be read and we can understand it but when it comes to things like búyào lí can be read as don’t leave or no pears and often causes confusion if context is not given. 不要离 means don’t leave and 不要梨 means no pears. but overall you did an outstanding job in explaining the need of hanzi .
这正是我这么久以来一直试图解释的东西。 我的朋友问我，为什么我们不能用拼音写，wǒ shì zhōngguórén可以读，我们也可以理解，但当涉及到像búyào lí可以读成不要离开或没有梨子，如果没有给出上下文，往往会引起混淆。 不要离意味着不要离开，不要梨意味着不需要梨。但总的来说，你在解释汉字的必要性方面做得很好。
yeah, languages who have used or continued to use hanzi(hanja, kanji, etc.) are mostly languages which are context-based(especially chinese and japanese), that is also one of the reasons why japanese hasn't abandoned kanji/hanzi; in japanese, hashi/はし could be 端, 箸, or 橋, the characters really helped in differentiating the contextual meaning of similar sounding words. hanzi is really interesting as a writing system.
是的，一直使用或继续使用汉字（hanja, kanji, etc.）的语言大多是基于语境的语言（尤其是汉语和日语），这也是日语没有放弃汉字/汉字的原因之一。
汉字作为一种书写系统真的很有趣。
not only that, but hanzi, especially the traditional set, is easily the most beautiful writing system in the world. each character is like a work of art. it would be a huge pity if this was lost.
不仅如此，汉字，特别是繁体字，很容易成为世界上最美丽的书写系统。
每个汉字都像一件艺术品。 如果失去了这一点，将是一个巨大的遗憾。
i’d add kai to the end when it’s leaving and zi when it’s a pear
当它表示离开的意思时，我会在末尾加上kai，当它是一个梨时，会加上zi。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
but if you understand it when spoken, why not when written phonetically?
但是，如果你在说话时能理解，为什么在写成拼音时不能理解呢？
@roonil wazlib i think there's more context when you speak. when people write, most words are 1 syllable and when you speak, most words are 2 syllables.
我认为你说话时有更多的语境。当人们读汉字时，大多数时候是一个一个音节去读，而当你说话时，大部分单词是2个音节。
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@roonil wazlib you're somewhat right that the stock "context" answer is somewhat lacking, in fact in vast majority of cases there's enough context in text to decipher the meaning of homophones regardless of the symbol used, which is illustrated perfectly by chinese forums which can often look like a bunch of gibberish to a text-focused learner, so filled are they with puns.
in fact there are relatively few syllable combinations that create meaningful words, and even less of those words can form meaningful phrases. the problem seems to be fairly overblown by the "pinyin bad" faction
你说得有点道理，但仅仅用“上下文”作为理由说服力不够，事实上，在大多数情况下，无论使用什么符号，文本中都有足够的上下文来解释同音词的含义，这一点在中文论坛上得到了很好的说明，对于一个专注于文字的学习者来说，这些论坛往往看起来像是一堆胡言乱语，因此充斥着双关语。 事实上，创造有意义的单词的音节组合相对较少，而能够形成有意义的短语的音节组合就更少。这个问题似乎被“拼音不好”派夸大了。
i've been learning to speak mandarin but haven't even tried to learn to read yet so thank you for the knowledge dump so i can know in advance!
我一直在学习说普通话，但还没有尝试过学习阅读，所以感谢你，让我可以提前知道!
ok, how do you tell the difference in speech then?
好吧，那你怎么辨别说话的区别呢？
we could write in pinyin (with tone markers of some sort) but yeah it would definitely be tougher to read.
there are lots of characters whose meaning i will know but whose pronunciation, especially tone, i will be much less certain of.
我们可以用拼音书写（带有某种声调标记），但读起来肯定会更难。 有很多汉字的意思我知道，但他们的发音，尤其是声调，我不是很确定。
well, not sure that all this is that essential. dungan language uses cyrillic while being basically a mandarin dialect. another counter example is vietnamese which successfully transitioned to a latin-based scxt.
好吧，不确定这一切都是必不可少的。东干语使用西里尔文，但基本上是一种普通话方言。
另一个反例是越南语，它成功地过渡到基于拉丁语的文字。
译者注：东干汉语（东干语：хуэйзў йүян；俄语：дунганский язык）是东干族通用的汉语，是汉语陕甘方言在中国境外的特殊变体，主要融会了俄语词汇，也融会阿拉伯语、波斯语和突厥语部分词汇，近来由于和中国的交流增加了，也吸收了不少普通话词汇。其中又可细分为甘肃方言和陕西方言变体。其书面语以甘肃方言为基础。
@mikhail sokolov i think more literature-based words are used in formal mandarin than both of the cases, especially in china. even when we are speaking, we sometimes ask questions like "did you mean this or that character" to clarify any confusions. some of my relatives are illiterate, so when i talk to them, i always avoid using any of those words. otherwise, it will take me so long to explain the subtle differences without showing directly the character i meant.
我认为在正式的普通话中使用基于文学的单词比这两种情况都多，尤其是在中国。
即使在我们说话时，我们有时也会问诸如“你说的到底是哪个字？是这个字还是那个字？”之类的问题，以澄清任何困惑。
我的一些亲戚是文盲，所以当我和他们交谈时，我总是避免使用这些词。
否则，我将花费很长时间来解释细微的差异，而无法直接表达出我的意思。
@bradley qiini that you do it this way doesn't mean it couldn't work by other means. overall i'm kinda skeptical about claims that language x can only function with a scxt y. i believe even russian can be written in a chinese hieroglyphics derived scxt and with time it will adapt fine. at least there were many cases like this in history.
你这样做并不意味着它不能通过其他方式发挥作用。 总的来说，我对语言x只能通过脚本y发挥作用的说法有点怀疑。
我相信即使是俄语也可以用中国象形文字衍生的字体来书写，随着时间的推移，它将适应得很好。 至少在历史上有很多这样的案例。
this video didn't mention the main advantage, which is that when you write chinese characters, you're not writing sounds, you're actually writing things, meaningful things and concepts. you're almost drawing. this helps cross-language communication, and is the very reason why the same system can be used for so many different chinese dialects/languages, plus japanese, and even korean and vietnamese in the past.
这个视频没有提到汉字的主要优势，那就是当你写汉字时，你不是在写读音，你实际上是在写东西，有意义的东西和概念。 你几乎是在画画。 这有助于跨语言交流，这也是为什么同一个系统可以用于这么多不同的中文方言/语言，加上日语，甚至过去的韩语和越南语的原因。
@ozan emekter i agree, and i started learning chinese because of the characters, more than the putonghua language itself.
我同意，我开始学习中文是因为汉字，而不是普通话本身。
@mikhail sokolov it's not essential but it's definitely helpful. removing chinese characters would make chinese naturally start to create longer words for disambiguation.
just notice how different is spoken english from written english, the spelling of many words doesn't represent the sounds, and they're written differently just to disambiguate, for example "eye" and "i", "knight" and "night".
这不是必要的，但绝对有帮助。去掉汉字会让汉语自然地开始创造更长的单词来消除歧义。
请注意，口语和书面英语有多么不同，许多单词的拼写并不代表发音，它们的写法不同只是为了消除歧义，例如“eye”和“i”、“knight”和“night”。
@v is for void well english language is not exactly sensible is it?
just look at this mess:
tough, through, though, thorough, thought, trough, throw, threw
it's just a mess all over. it was a horror to learn in school.
好吧，英语并不是那么明智的，不是吗？
看看这个烂摊子就知道了。 ough, through, though, thorough, thought, trough, throw, threw
这只是一个混乱的整体。 在学校里学习是一件很恐怖的事情。
@redwolfnum does anyone know if korean abandoning chinese characters for a simple alphabet system has caused problems?
有谁知道韩国人放弃汉字而采用简单的字母系统是否造成了问题？
@redwolfnum japanese does it correctly, but korean should've kept it. i've heard it's just annoying with its sino-korean words where it's from chinese origin, but slapped with the hangul, so you lose meaning.
日本人做得对，但韩国人应该保留它。我听说它的中韩词很烦人，它的起源来自于中国，但被韩文打了一巴掌，所以它失去了意义。
@i am curious french is worse than english for sensibility. try a drinking game at vere, verte, ver, and verre. you will deal will wish yourself back to english. or the amount of silent letters in french, and also. dumb rules like
let's ignore h, let's have l' for any word that has a vowel in the start of the word, oh i see you got an h? yeah go and slap the l' and ignore h's entirely unless we want to break a rule.
法语比英语更敏感。你去试试vere、verte、ver和verre。
你会同意的，你会希望自己回到英国。
再加上法语无声字母的数量，以及，愚蠢的规则！
让我们忽略h，让我们为单词开头有元音的单词加上i，哦，我看到你有一个h？是的，去打l，完全忽略h，除非我们想打破规则。
the fact that each sound in chinese have so many words associated is why most chinese poems strictly follow 5/7 words per line, 4/8 lines, rhymes while still being able to tell a paragraph long story. all of the words are without conjunctions, or any of the supporting words that allows people to understand the word by voice, and many of them aren't commonly used at all. this becomes so complex that most people even chinese won't be able to understand a poem if they didn't specialize in language.
事实上，中文的每个音都有很多关联词，这就是为什么大多数中文诗歌严格遵循每行5/7个词、4/8行、押韵，同时还能讲述一段长故事。 所有的词都没有连接词，或任何让人们通过语音来理解这个词的辅助词，而且很多词根本不常用。 这就变得非常复杂，如果不是专门研究语言，大多数人甚至中国人都无法理解一首诗。
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that's mostly right but glaringly wrong in one regard: tang poems are definitely comprehensible to children and are indeed commonly used to teach chinese children chinese. all chinese people really do know "eternal goose" or for a deeper example "climbing stork tower".
chinese poetry is amazing and entirely comprehensible even with a fairly low level of chinese. with a dictionary you can read chinese poems during your third semester of college level chinese, i.e. around hsk3/hsk4.
这句话基本正确，但有一点明显错误。 唐诗对儿童来说绝对是可以理解的，而且确实常用于教中国儿童中文。
所有中国人都知道eternal goose （咏鹅）。 或更深入的例子 climbing stork tower（登鹳雀楼）。
中国的诗歌是惊人的，即使有相当低的中文水平也完全可以理解。
有了字典，你可以在大学第三学期的中文水平上阅读中文诗词，即围绕hsk3/hsk4（汉语水平考试）。
thank you for explaining exactly why i understand written chinese better than the spoken language. i guess i just don’t have enough context for the common phrases in order to pick them out by ear.
谢谢你解释为什么我比口语更懂书面汉语。我想我只是没有足够的上下文来表达常见的短语，以便能从耳朵里分辨出来。
curiously, nuosu, another sino-tibetan language with pretty much the same situation as chinese (but one less tone, more initials, and less finals) is written using a syllabary of about 1100 syllables. which is quite inconvenient and leads to the exact same ambiguity as writing only in pinyin would.
奇怪的是，诺苏语是另一种汉藏语系语言，其情况与汉语基本相同（但少了一个音调，多了声母，少了韵母），其书写采用了约1100个音节的音节表。
这是很不方便的，而且会导致与只写拼音完全一样的歧义。
译者注：诺苏语，又称彝语北部方言，是彝语最大的方言，主要分布在四川凉山彝族自治州和云南省北部，使用人数接近200万。
yeah, i'm over here studying japanese with my 100 syllables...you can only sometimes differentiate words through intonation, which isn't even usually taught, so it does get quite confusing as well, even with multiple syllables per morpheme!
(i'm a native german speaker and fluent in english by the way, )
是的，我在这里用我的 100 个音节学习日语......你有时只能通过语调来区分单词，这甚至通常都没有被教过，所以它确实也很混乱，即使每个语素有多个音节！
（我的母语是德语，顺便说一句，英语很流利）
this was very interesting. i studied mandarin for some time and found it interesting that i seldom run into new sounds after the first few months, but often run into new characters.
isn't there a paradox of sorts in how this situation came to be? i normally think of writing as being a later development to the oral language, but what does this mean for how the spoken language and written languages evolved? seems like this implies they've diverged a lot? eg. a single character has a lot of meaning but a single syllable does not. i'm left more puzzled than i started ;) thanks.
这很有趣。我学习了一段时间的普通话，发现有趣的是，在开始的几个月后，我很少遇到新的声音，但经常遇到新的字符。 在这种情况的形成过程中，难道不存在某种悖论吗？我通常认为写作是口语的后期发展，但这对口语和书面语言的演变意味着什么？这似乎意味着他们分歧很大？一个字符有很多意思，但一个音节没有。我比开始时更困惑；）谢谢
i am in no way an expert but china probably has one of the longest history of co-evolution of written and spoken language, so that they probably had way longer time to morph into a common language. still, it probably was mostly a privilege of the rich to read and write (like everywhere in human history), so the common language probably evolved in a very small, homogenous circle leading to a high stability and rather little variation.
moreover, this also circumvents the fact that china has an almost uncountably large amount of distinct local dialects which sometimes have hugely different grammar and vocabulary amongst themselves. mandarin was created (from the basis of mostly the beijing/peking dialect) to have a common language everybody could (and should in the movements for national unity) speak, similarly to rp english.
我绝不是专家，但中国可能是书面语和口语共同进化历史最长的国家之一，因此他们可能有更长的时间来演变成共同语言。尽管如此，读写可能大部分是富人的特权（就像人类历史上的任何地方一样），因此通用语言可能是在一个非常小的、同质的循环中演变而来的，这导致了高度的稳定性和相当小的变化。 此外，这也避免了一个事实，即中国有几乎数不清的大量不同的地方方言，它们之间有时有着巨大的语法和词汇差异。普通话的产生（主要基于北京/北京方言）是为了让每个人都能（也应该在民族团结运动中）说一种通用语言，类似于rp英语（正宗英式口音。
@water under the bridge or more time to diverge into two parallel systems?
还是有更多的时间分化为两个平行的系统？
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8个月前
on the other hand, if you ask any taiwanese or malay chinese who originally came from "southern hokkien" and speak "southern hokkien language", they will tell you at least there are great differences to say the exact same basic common wordings with using the same chinese characters, just becoz they are the diasporas of two different cities within the same region. we just don't put the correct way of saying one character at the top priority. we don't modify our character/words by the means of reflecting how we speak the words nowadays, like germany and france.
在我使用诺基亚 3310 手机的日子，我不是用拼音输入汉字，我输入了笔画！
这就是中国人如何思考如何写一个单词/汉字。我们不关心它的发音、音节、拼音等等，每个中国人的第一个念头都不是每个字的发音。
另一方面，如果你问任何一个最初来自闽南，并说闽南语的台湾人或马来华人，他们会告诉你，他们在说由相同的汉字所组成的基本常用词时，也存在巨大不同。
我们只是没有把一个汉字的发音放在第一位。我们不会因为发音来修改我们的字符/单词，例如德国和法国。
i don't know the answer but maybe this can start something: chinese characters didn't change the meaning much during history, but the pronunciation changed a lot, and different dialects also pronounce the same word differently... for example 十 (ten) is "kjuwx" in ancient chinese (tang dynasty), "kyū" in japanese, "shí" in standard chinese, "sap" in cantonese...
我不知道答案，在历史上，汉字的含义没有太大变化，但发音发生了很大变化，不同的方言对同一个单词的发音也不同。。。
例如十 （十）在古汉语（唐朝）中是“kjuwx”，在日语中是“kyū”，在标准汉语中是“shí”，粤语中是“sap”。。。
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in most of chinese history, the spoken language has been largely irrelevant due to having to manage a huge empire that will inevitably span across many language, dialect, cultural zones. the first emperor did not unify the spoken language but instead unified the written language. since everybody already used logograms already so it worked. the purpose of written language is to convey meaning, not sound.
在中国历史的大部分时间里，口头语言在很大程度上是无关紧要的，因为必须管理一个不可避免地跨越许多语言、方言和文化区域的庞大帝国。始皇帝并没有统一口语，而是统一了文字。因为每个人都在使用过文字，所以它起作用了。书面语言的目的是传达意义，而不是声音。
i agree 100%
百分比同意。
that explains a hell of a lot
这解释了很多事情。
exact reason why there are so many dialects. the "standard chinese" or mandarin was originally a dialect of the north. it was dubbed the official spoken language as china modernized from it's imperial dynasties.
这正是为什么有这么多方言的原因。“标准汉语”或普通话最初是北方的一种方言。随着中国从帝国时代开始现代化，它被称为官方口语。
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what about poetry?
那诗歌呢？
@normi you can read or sing poems in either mandarin or cantonese. both sound right
你可以用普通话或粤语朗诵或者唱诗。两者听起来都对。
郁洲
take 《楚辞》 for example, that's a set of poems which should be read or sung in ancient chu dialect(楚语), so that each of its lines would rhyme. so when students today try to read the poems in 普通话, they sound like total gibberish. but since it's readable, understanding them is no problem.
in today's china, cantonese(粤语) pop songs made in hongkong and putonghua(普通话) pop songs made in mainland china are living proof of how dialects affect the ways people compose and sing. try eason chan's 富士山下 and 爱情转移, one is sung in putonghua and the other is in cantonese. he used different set phrases from the two dialects to compose two sets of lyrics with the exact opposite understandings of love and relationship, yet they both rhyme perfectly in the same rhythm.
诗歌、歌剧、歌词，它们都是关于押韵的，而押韵意味着在正确的时刻发出正确的声音。
由于中国不同的方言听起来非常不同，你的发音方式肯定是一个影响因素。
以《楚辞》为例，这是一套应该用古代楚语来读或唱的诗，这样它的每一句都会押韵。
因此，当今天的学生试图用普通话读这些诗时，他们听起来完全是胡言乱语。但由于它是可读的，所以理解它们是没有问题的。
在今天的中国，香港的粤语流行歌曲和中国大陆的普通话流行歌曲是方言如何影响人们的创作和歌唱方式的生动证明。
试试陈奕迅的富士山下和爱情转移，一首是用普通话唱的，另一首是用粤语唱的。
他用两种方言中的不同短语创作了两组歌词，对爱情的理解完全相反，但它们都以同样的节奏完美押韵。
@adamzen from the original comment "the purpose of written language is to convey meaning, not sound."
since you said both sound right, that means the sound is part of the purpose of some writing.
原文："书面语言的目的是传达意思，而不是声音"。
既然你说这两种声音都对，那就意味着声音是一些写作目的的一部分。
@郁洲 while your comment was a great read, i was not actually asking about what is poem.
my point was the comment was not entirely true, because sounds are definitely an important thing to convey in poems.
虽然你的评论读起来很棒，但我实际上并没有问什么是诗。
原评论指出，“书面语言的目的是传达意义，而不是声音。
我的观点是，这个评论并不完全正确，因为声音绝对是诗歌中传达的重要内容。
郁洲
是的，声音肯定很重要。 中国古诗词有非常严格的押韵规则，而且通常是在公共场合演唱或朗诵。 好的押韵是一首好诗的基础。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
@someoneydk most use the latin alphabet. and you can have the same scxt but use it in a completely different way. many chinese and japanese characters do not share the same meaning. your point is moot.
大多数使用拉丁字母。 你可以有同样的脚本，但以完全不同的方式使用它。 许多汉字和日本字的含义并不相同。 你的观点是没有意义的。
@normi pretty sure there were “official” dialects like 雅言 and then 官话. think most poems are written with the official dialect of the time in mind.
很确定有“官方”方言，如雅言，然后是官话。想想大多数诗歌都是用当时的官方方言写的。
usually the classical poem is more in rhyme when read in other dialects such as min nan or cantonese. some of the words also making more sense when read them in min nan or cantonese. for example, in some of the poem you will encounter the word 兮。which pronounced as "xi1" in mandarin that sounds like a gibberish. but in min nan(my mother tongue dialect) we pronounce this as "heh" which is actually an interjection that usually use in opera singing.
通常情况下，如果用其他方言如闽南语或粤语来读，古典诗词更有韵味。有些词在用闽南语或粤语读时也更有意义。
例如，在一些诗中，你会遇到 "兮 "字。"兮 "的发音为 "xi1"。 在普通话中，这听起来像一个胡言乱语。
但在闽南语（我的母语方言）中，我们将其读作 "heh"。 这实际上是一个通常在歌剧演唱中所使用的感叹词。
true, chinese can even understand 80% of japanese as long as they are using kanji
诚然，中国人甚至可以理解80%的日语，只要他们使用汉字
this feature of chinese written language occurred to me after i finished the video (i already know that japanese and korean also use chinese characters a lot). i realized that with an ideogram writing system, in theory you could have a single writing system for the entire world, no matter what language was spoken locally. i wouldn't be surprised if this is actually attempted sometime in the future
在我看完视频后，我想到了中国书面语言的这一特点（我已经知道日本和韩国也大量使用汉字）。
我意识到，有了表意文字系统，理论上你可以为整个世界提供一个单一的文字系统，不管当地使用什么语言。
如果在未来的某个时候真的尝试这样做，我也不会感到惊讶。
would be nice to have both. this way of writing is a tad roundabout with a lot of words gaining meaning by association. i guess it's also true in english to some extent, but i don't think that's the case in polish for example.
两者兼而有之就好了。这种写作方式有点迂回，很多单词通过联想获得意义。我想这在某种程度上在英语中也是如此，但我认为在波兰语中并非如此。
oh this makes a lot of sense! i guess it explains how japanese borrows characters from china and keeps only their meaning and not their pronunciation.
哦，这很有意义！这是个很好的例子。 我想这解释了日语是如何从中国借用汉字，而只保留其含义而不保留其发音的。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
the porpouse of the written language should be to convey meaning and sound. if you leave the phonetics out, then you end up with monsters like english, spanish is an example of how a language should work, if you know how to read it, you know how to pronounce any word, even new words you just invented.
书面语言的目的应该是传达意思和声音。如果你忽略了语音学，那么你最终会遇到像英语这样的怪物。
西班牙语是一种语言应该如何工作的例子，如果你知道如何阅读它，你知道如何发音任何单词，甚至是你刚刚发明的新词。
yeah, i read chinese books regularly, and there are many times i know the meaning of characters from sheer exposure without even knowing how they are supposed to sound in mandarin. but who cares? the meaning is intact.
是的，我经常阅读中文书籍，很多时候我从纯粹的接触中知道字符的含义，甚至不知道它们在普通话中应该如何发音。但谁在乎呢？意思是完整的。
and this is the second reason why chinese still uses a logographic scxt.because the written word doesn't depend on the sound, it can be pronunced in any dialect or language without changing its written form, enabling people speaking different dialects to understand each other through writing.i know there are some characters that only some dialects use but, for example, as a non-native mandarin speaker who never really learned cantonese, i can understand much of it if you write it in hanzi but if you write it in romanization i won't be able to understand anything.chinese characters work like numbers.if you don't know mandarin and i write you a "qī", you have no idea what it means, but let's write it as 7.now you understand it, although you read it as "seven" or whatever it's called in your language.same with chinese characters.
这也是中国人仍然使用符号文字的第二个原因。
因为书面文字不依赖于声音，所以它可以用任何方言或语言发音，而不会改变其书面形式，使说不同方言的人能够通过书写相互理解。
我知道有些字符只有某些方言使用，例如，作为一个从未真正学过广东话的非普通话母语人士，如果你用汉字写，我可以理解很多，但如果你用罗马化写它，我将无法理解任何东西。
汉字像数字一样工作。如果你不懂普通话，我给你写一个“qī”，你不知道它是什么意思。
但让我们把它写成7，现在你明白了，尽管你把它读成“七”或任何在你的语言中的读音。
数字的工作方式与汉字相同。