为什么繁荣和先进的文明始于欧亚大陆，而不是几千年前的北美？-pg电子麻将胡了
why did prosperous and advanced civilisations begin in eurasia and not in north america several millennia ago?译文简介
随着人类移民到美洲，该地区早期的文明也确实发展了起来
正文翻译
why did prosperous and advanced civilisations begin in eurasia and not in north america several millennia ago?
为什么繁荣和先进的文明始于欧亚大陆，而不是几千年前的北美？
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随着人类移民到美洲，该地区早期的文明也确实发展了起来，但为什么北美帝国没有发展到像后来在第二个千年中期殖民和征服其土地的欧亚社会那样发达和技术先进？北美原住民是否缺乏资源？他们是否缺乏政治上的团结？他们是否没有动力去建立可以与欧亚大陆相抗衡的帝国？从技术上来说，快速的技术进步发生在工业时代，但从耶稣诞生到1400年代的时间跨度来看，为什么北美没有发展出像中国、英国、法国、西班牙等欧亚帝国那样强大的帝国？
horses are probably the biggest factor. in general, domesticated animals. eurasia also had better geography that allowed for more trade. competition breeds more ideas, more innovation, and better technology. parts of asia and africa that had limited contact with the rest of their continent were also on the same level as tribes in the americas.
马可能是最大的因素。或者总体来说是：家养动物。欧亚大陆也有更好的地理条件，有利于更多的贸易。竞争孕育了更多的想法，更多的创新，以及更好的技术。亚洲和非洲与大陆其他地区接触有限的部分地区也与美洲部落处于同一水平。
two things
america did not have large herd animals that could be easily dometicated aside from lamas when eurasia had pigs, horses, cows, donkeys, chicken
second, eurasia was a somewhat connected place. invetions and ideas would spread but they would never arrive to americas since they were not part of global trade.
they were highly advanced but did not use wheels nor metallurgy.
两件事：
第一，当欧亚大陆有猪、马、牛、驴、鸡的时候，除了羊驼之外，美洲没有可以轻易驯化的大型群居动物。
第二，欧亚大陆是一个有一定联系的地方。发明和思想会传播，但他们永远不会到达美洲，因为他们不是全球贸易的一部分。
他们其实非常先进，但没有使用车轮或冶金。
they did use wheels, they were just useless because they had no animals to pull vehicles
and also they did have metallurgy in south and meso-america, this misconception comes from the fact that eastern north america didn’t have it, which is where the british colonised the land
他们确实有使用轮子，只是没什么用，因为他们没有动物来拉动车辆
另外，他们在南美洲和中美洲确实有冶金业，这种误解来自于北美东部没有冶金术的事实，也就是英国人殖民的地方。
really? goes to show how much impact popular culture has on us.
wouldn't cart still be usefull? even human powered one? maybe differemces in height made it inpractical? but they did have advanced roads.
they did have lamas?
didn't meso americans use obsidian tools etc? they had gold and jewelrery. it does count as metallurgy but they did not discover iron i think?
真的吗？这说明了流行文化对我们的影响有多大。
就算没有动物驱动，车子不还是很有用吗？甚至可以用人力来驱动？也许是地区海拔使它不实用？但他们确实有先进的道路。
而且他们不是有羊驼吗？
中美洲人不是使用黑曜石工具等吗？他们有黄金和珠宝。这的确算得上是冶金学，但我认为他们并没有发现铁。
yeah they didn’t smelt iron
gold, silver, copper and platinum(in fact they were the first to process platinum) was highly advanced. metals were mainly for ornaments but tools existed as well.
one oddity with the americans compared to the rest of the world is that despite having metals stone tools were still used alongside metal ones
and llamas are not good draft animals, and human pulled carts aren’t really common in afro-eurasia as well. ‘human powered’ vehicles were usually just a chair on sticks. it was only for extremely privileged people like royalty
是的，他们没有熔炼铁的技术
但他们熔炼金、银、铜和铂金（事实上，他们是第一个加工铂金的人）的技术是非常先进的。金属主要用于装饰品，但也有用于工具的。
与世界其他地区相比，美洲人的一个奇怪之处在于，尽管有金属，但石头工具仍与金属工具一起使用。
羊驼并不是很好的役畜，而人力拉车在非洲-欧亚大陆也不太常见。人力驱动的车辆通常只是架在棍子上的椅子。只有像皇室这样的极端特权人士才能使用。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
the wheel is a trivial invention, known for millenia. the durable and low friction wheel bearing is the real invention that most people talk about when talking about wheels. without refined metals that really can't happen.
轮子是一项微不足道的发明，已有数千年的历史。耐用且低摩擦的车轮轴承是大多数人在谈论车轮的重要性时真正发挥作用的发明。但如果没有精炼金属，这种事情就没办法做到。
affectionate9695
yeah, it's cool that you read guns, germs, and steel, but it's been mostly discredited.
是的，看出你读过《枪炮、病菌与钢铁》了，但它的大部分观点都受到了质疑。
has everything icsaid fully discredited?
i am notnsaying they were not advanced. they were. simply opportunity did not reveal itself for them.
哦，那这本书的一切就都完全失去信誉了吗？
我不是说他们不先进。他们是先进的。只是机会没有向他们显现。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
the americas did have incredibly advanced, powerful, and prosperous civilizations. the engineering, science, hygiene, agricultural advancements were world class. the inca (south america) ruled 10-12m people by some estimates and tenochtitlan rivaled populations of paris etc. they had empires, record keeping etc.
the framing of this is incredibly subjective unless we're talking specifically about why american empires didn't cross the ocean to conquer the world. europeans best weapon against natives in america was smallpox, flu, and the like.
美洲确实有令人难以置信的先进、强大和繁荣的文明。工程、科学、卫生、农业方面的进步都是世界级的。据估计，印加人（南美洲）统治着1000-1200万人口，特诺奇蒂特兰的人口与巴黎的人口相当。他们有帝国，有史书等等。
除非我们具体讨论为什么美洲帝国没有漂洋过海去征服世界，否则这个问题的框架是非常主观的。欧洲人在美洲对付土著人的最好武器是天花、流感等。
i've heard that part of the reason they didn't go further is because they didn't have horses or any other easily rideable animal to help knowledge and troops spread further, faster. some native groups definitely had forms of writing.
the incan stoneworking is something amazing to behold. they made buildings that would remain firmly held together without any mortar. just gravity and extremely precise stone cutting.
我听说他们没有走得更远的部分原因是因为他们没有马或任何其他易于骑乘的动物来帮助知识和军队传播得更远、更快。一些土著群体肯定有了某种书写形式。
印加人的石砌工艺令人惊叹不已。他们建造的建筑不需要任何灰浆就能牢牢地固定在一起。只靠重力和极其精确的石头切割。
it's also worth noting two more things.
first, the fact that the americas run south-north rather than east-west means that trading grain was harder, since what grows down south might not grow up north (because climate changes a lot in that direction) while what grows on the east probably grows on the west, because the seasons/climate remain stable at similar latitude. so trade between empires made more sense in eurasia, and with trade comes exchange in technologies and ideas that speed up discovery.
second, civilizations in the americas what is now usa didn't really discover smelting to make tools (which to do so you just have to be lucky), this meant they had no bronze tools and therefore were limited in what they could actually develop, since working with non-metal tools is just harder.
还有两件事值得注意。
首先，美洲自南向北而不是自东向西的事实意味着谷物贸易更难进行，因为在南方生长的东西可能无法在北方生长（因为气候在这个方向变化很大），而在东方生长的东西可能在西方也能生长，因为在相似的纬度上季节/气候是保持稳定的。因此，帝国之间的贸易在欧亚大陆更容易进行，而随着贸易的加深，技术和思想的交流加快了发明的速度。
第二，在美洲（即现在的美国）的文明并没有真正发现冶炼来制造工具（要做到这一点，你必须有足够的运气），这意味着他们没有青铜工具，因此在他们能够实际开发的东西方面受到限制，因为使用非金属工具是比较困难的。
my heavens why is this metallurgy misconception literally everywhere in the comments. they did have metallurgy. they did make metal tools as well. just because the eastern north americans didn’t have it doesn’t mean everyone didn’t have it
我的天，为什么在评论中到处都是这种对美洲冶金学的误解。他们确实有冶金学。他们也确实制造出了金属工具。北美东部土著没有金属工具并不意味着所有人都没有金属工具。
yeah, my bad, i meant to speak about north america (and with north american i mean the ones that were in modern usa) in that second part rather than the whole americas, since that's what op originally asked about. nations further south definitely had more advanced metallurgy, especially the incas.
it ties back a bit with the reduced trade leading to less exchange of technology, since a trade route between the incas and north american tribes would have made less sense than the chinese and the romans for example.
thanks for point out my mistake
是的，我的错，我的意思是第二点说的是北美（北美是指现代美国的范围），而不是整个美洲，因为那是楼主最初问到的地方。更南的国家肯定有更先进的冶金技术，特别是印加人。
这与贸易减少导致技术交流减少有关，因为印加人和北美部落之间的贸易路线比中国人和罗马人之间的贸易路线更难以开通。
谢谢你指出我的错误
the mississippian culture absolutely had metallurgy, large cities (cahokia, across the river from modern day st. louis), built mounds larger than the great pyramid of giza, etc. this euro centric idea that first nations were primitive, tolkienesque elves living at one with nature is nonsense.
密西西比文化绝对有冶金术，有大型城市（卡霍基亚，与现代圣路易斯隔河相望），建造了比吉萨大金字塔更大的土丘，等等。这种以欧洲为中心的想法，认为原住民是原始的、托尔金式与大自然融为一体的精灵，是无稽之谈。
europe is tiny, the americas definitely run east west and north south
欧洲很小，而美洲既有东西走向也有南北走向。
and the reason a civilisation like the incas weren't that into stuff like the wheel is that something that rolls downhill when you let go of it is not the most useful thing if you have an empire built in the mountains.
像印加人这样的文明不那么热衷于像轮子这样的东西的原因是，如果你在山上建立了一个帝国，那么一件当你放开它时它就会滚下山的东西并不是最有用的东西。
some scholars think that there was contact and trade long before columbus
i believe the main reason it wasn’t more common was because there were plenty of resources in the americas. european countries explored and conquered due to a need for resources, especially england because its a relatively small bit of land and the climate is harsh to grow much.
in the america’s, we had resources that we could have definitely sold, but the motivation to seek out trading because you have more than enough resources is less than the motivation to find the resources you need/want. this is why the americas became very export heavy once colonized, they wanted all the resources we could provide
一些学者认为，早在哥伦布之前美洲就和其他大洲有过接触和贸易。
我认为这种情况不常见的主要原因是美洲有丰富的资源。欧洲国家因对资源的需要而进行探索和征服，特别是英国，因为其土地相对较小，气候恶劣，难以大量种植。
在美洲，我们绝对有剩余的资源可以出售，但因为拥有足够多的资源而寻求交易的动机小于寻找所需/想要的资源的动机。这就是为什么美洲一旦成为殖民地就变得非常依赖出口，他们想要我们能提供的所有资源
civilization in eurasia is over 7,000 years old. the inca peaked only 700 years ago.
欧亚大陆的文明已有7000多年的历史。印加文明仅在 700 年前才达到顶峰。
the america's didn't have particularly advanced anything. it's just more advanced than they used to get credit for. their engineering and economy were more like ancient sumer or egypt than anything else. they had large populations because they had good land, but they weren't anything special
美洲没有什么特别先进的东西。它只是比他们之前的过去更先进。他们的工程和经济更像古苏美尔或埃及。他们人口众多，因为他们有块好地，但他们并没有什么特别之处
i think the main question was why didn’t they develop sooner and become larger, similar to the roman and egyptian empires
我认为楼主主要是问为什么他们没有像罗马和埃及帝国那样发展得更快并变得更大
1.) it's believed that humans didn't reach north america until 10-20k years ago. as opposed to europe, africa, asia, and india who were inhabited 400k years ago.
2.) north and south america were sparsely populated compared to the other continents. larger populations generally share ideas and develop faster.
3.) eurocentric history erasing north and south american achievements. such as prophets town which had a population of 150k. the cherokee at one point had a 100% bilingual literacy rate whereas white people less than half. the conquistadors deliberately destroyed many records left by the aztecs and natives.
4.) i wanna say it was the mayans, or perhaps another south american culture that destroyed themselves by cutting down trees. this in turn affected the local environment. and eventually lead to their destruction.
1.) 据了解，人类在1-2万年前才到达北美洲。而欧洲、非洲、亚洲和印度在40万年前就有人居住了。
2.) 与其他大陆相比，北美洲和南美洲的人口稀少。较大的人口一般会分享思想，发展得更快。
3.) 以欧洲为中心的历史抹杀了北美和南美的成就。例如，先知镇有15万人口。切罗基人曾一度拥有100%的双语识字率，而白人则不到一半。征服者们故意销毁了阿兹特克人和土著人留下的许多历史记录。
4.) 我想说的是玛雅人，或者可能是另一种南美文化，他们通过砍伐树木来毁灭了自己。这反过来又影响了当地的环境。并最终导致了他们的毁灭。
oh man the other day i learned about the “kelp highway theory” which suggests humans came 20-15k years ago via boat, rather than 15k years ago via bering land bridge.
对了，我记得我读到过“海带高速公路理论”，该理论表明人类是在 2-1.5万年前通过船来到的，而不是 15000 年前通过白令陆桥来到的。
regarding your first point, humans did not spawn in all over eurasia 400k years ago. they had to travel and spread around. also 400k is extremely generous, most estimates place the appearance of homo sapiens between 200-300k.
and they took a long time to spread out. the ancestors of modern humans outside africa left the continent about 60,000 years ago
关于你的第一点，人类在40万年前并不是在欧亚大陆的各个地方诞生的。他们不得不四处旅行和传播。另外，40万是非常慷慨的估计，大多数估计认为智人的出现是在20-30万年之间。
他们花了很长时间才散开。非洲以外的现代人类的祖先在大约 6 万年前才离开了非洲大陆
i pulled those numbers from memory because i was too lazy to cite any sources. regardless, homo sapiens reaching the americas much later is one theory i've thread.
我只是凭记忆给出了这些数字，因为我懒得引用任何来源。无论如何，智人到达美洲的时间要晚得多，这是我想给出的一个理论。
when they reached the americas is irrelevant. because by the time they did humans all over were still mainly hunter gatherers, nobody was really advanced yet
他们何时到达美洲并不重要。因为当他们到达时，世界各地的人类都还在狩猎和采集，没有谁比谁更先进。
its because the americas were at a geographical disadvantage, crops, and animals couldn't be shared easily because the regional climates were so different. they also lacked any kinda of strong animal for agriculture and transportation which limited their development. europe and asia had a horizontally similar climate so it was much easier for crops and animals to spread without any concern of them being able to live in the new environment
这是因为美洲在地理上处于劣势，农作物和动物无法轻易共享，因为地区气候差异很大。他们还缺乏用于农业和运输的强壮的动物，这限制了他们的发展。欧洲和亚洲的气候水平相似，因此农作物和动物更容易传播，而不必担心它们能否在新环境中生存
an interesting post that deserves some considered thought. i think it boils down to population density.
first, man arrived in the americas over the bering land bridge some 12,000 to 20,000 years ago. recent research and discovery is pushing the date back to 40,000 years before present (bp). clovis culture is well established at 12,000-14,000 years ago ( bp), to be followed by the folsom culture as defined by the style of their spear and arrow heads. these cultures (not empires) spread across north america, down the central american isthmus and into venezuela and beyond. pre-clovis habitation has been established in chile and northwest canada at tentative dates of ~20,000 years ago. these early migrants from asia contended with at least one ice age and giant fauna: bison, mammoth, tiger, etc. food was abundant, and land was plentiful.
一个有趣的帖子，值得我们深思。我认为这可以归结为人口密度问题。
首先，人类是在大约12000到20000年前通过白令陆桥到达美洲的。最近的研究和发现将这一日期推到了距今4万年。基本上可以确认克洛维斯文化在 12,000-14,000 年前就已经建立，随后是福尔森文化，这是由他们的矛和箭头的风格决定的。这些文化（不是帝国）遍布北美洲，沿着中美洲地峡，进入委内瑞拉及其他地区。在智利和加拿大西北部已经确定发现了前克洛维斯人的居住地，时间暂定为大约2万年前。这些来自亚洲的早期移民与至少一个冰河时代和巨型动物群作斗争：野牛、猛犸象、老虎等。食物丰富，土地充足。
third, there is massive evidence from archaeology that peaceful trade was the norm for much of the americas. the hopewell trade culture extended from the caribbean to southern ontario, for example. the iroquois confederation was just that - a confederation for peace and prosperity.
fourth, i am not saying that everything was peaceful in pre-columbian america, but i begin to wonder if there is a unique genetic make-up of the first peoples that pre-disposes to peace and co-existence rather than conflict and domination.
makes me think of today''s us politics.
其次，几乎无限的可居住的土地面积占了主导地位。直到大约距今 4000 年，领土控制才成为一个问题，甚至才成为一个可能。北方和南方都有广阔的水道，使旅行变得容易——实际上并不需要驮畜或马车（都需要轮子）。大帝国（例如，奥尔梅克、托尔特克、阿兹特克、玛雅和印加）征服和合并了相邻的部落，但它们之间的距离不够近，不足以使其相互对抗。在五大湖地区等人口密集的地区，部落战争大约在公元前3000年就开始了：休伦人vs伊利人、易洛魁人与欧洲国家的战争在1600年代开始。
第三，考古学的大量证据表明，和平贸易是美洲大部分地区的常态。例如，霍普韦尔贸易文化从加勒比海延伸到安大略省南部。易洛魁联盟就是这样--为了和平和繁荣而建立的联盟。
第四，我并不是说前哥伦布时期的美洲一切都很和平，但我开始怀疑原住民是否有一种独特的基因构成，使其倾向于和平与共存而不是冲突和统治。
这让我想到了今天的美国政治。
the americas have been human inhabited for far less time than afro-eurasia , which is where humans first developed. so afro-eurasia had quite a head start, and trade across the super-continent has been facilitated since ancient times. ancient china and rome had contact with each other. ideas, trade, and empires spread across the largest landmass on earth. for the relatively short period of time that the peoples of the americas had to develop civilization, they were incredibly advanced. for most of human history, the americas and afro-eurasia where basically different planets because the americas were settled when humans had not yet developed advanced civilizations. since the two worlds were cut off from each other, they developed at their own pace, with the cradle of civilization in afro-eurasia getting a head start of many thousands of years.
tldr answer: afro-eurasia got a head start
美洲开始有人类居住的时间远少于人类最早发展的非洲-欧亚大陆。因此，非洲-欧亚大陆处于领先地位，而且自古以来，超级大陆的贸易都很便利。古代中国与罗马有过接触。思想、贸易和帝国遍布在这块地球上最大的陆地。在美洲人民发展文明的相对较短的时间内，他们已经取得了令人难以置信的进步。在人类历史的大部分时间里，美洲和非洲-欧亚大陆基本上是不同的星球，因为美洲是在人类还没有发展出先进文明的时候定居的。由于两个世界相互隔绝，它们以各自的速度发展，非洲-欧亚大陆的文明摇篮领先了数千年。
总而言之答案是：非洲-欧亚大陆获得了先发优势
empires are not "more advanced" than the civilizations that previously existed in the lands they were colonizing. indigenous tribes of the north americas were doing fine with what they had for a long, long time before europeans showed up, and they sure as hell weren't using asbestos or leaded gasoline. is to conquer truly the same as being "prosperous" or have you absorbed this idea from the society you grew up in?
帝国并不比他们所殖民的土地上以前存在的文明“更先进”。在欧洲人出现之前的很长一段时间里，北美土著部落的生活一直很好，而且他们肯定没有使用石棉或含铅汽油。征服真的等于“繁荣”吗？还是你从你成长的社会中吸收了这种观念？
sure, but one had firearms and the wheel and one is gone...
whatever you call it, one civ had far more toys
当然，但一个有火器和轮子，一个已经消失了...
不管你怎么称呼它，一个文明比另一个有着更多的技术
one is gone because the other killed it. that does not make the killer more advanced, even if they write history books that say they are.
其中一个消失了，是因为另一个杀死了它。这并不会让杀手变得更先进，即使他们写的历史书说他们是更先进的。
again, one had firearms, the wheel, and boats to reach the other. its just absolutely quantifiable that one civ has the tools to subjugate the other.
whether one should is a completely different book, and one humanity has yet to write
还是那句话，一方拥有火器、轮子和船只，可以到达另一方。一个文明拥有征服另一个文明的工具是绝对可以量化的。
这本书是不是应该是跟现在完全不同，人类并未写就
the mayans had boats they understood astronomy and could navigate. the europeans took until marco polo to get to china
玛雅人有船，他们了解天文学，可以导航。欧洲人直到马可波罗才到达中国。
they didn't cross the ocean, though. and marco polo's story took place around 1300.
the mayan and aztec were serial human-sacrifiers. that's the reason so many nearby tribes helped the conquistadors.
so, the rose tinted glasses are a bit over sold. they had some advances, but not that many - compared to europe, and had a dark side on par with the europeans.
但他们并没有跨越海洋。马可波罗的故事发生在1300年左右。
玛雅人和阿兹特克人都是人类屠夫。这就是这么多附近的部落帮助征服者的原因。
所以，玫瑰色的眼镜有点过头了。他们有一些进步，但不是那么多--与欧洲相比，而且有与欧洲人一样的黑暗面。
that china comparison makes no damn sense. europe and china are extremely far away. the native americans didn’t travel that far either, it was just along the south american and meso american coasts
their maritime trade is more comparable with the mediterranean trade when it comes to europeans
这种与中国的比较毫无意义。欧洲和中国距离极其遥远。美洲原住民也没有走那么远，只是沿着南美洲和中美洲海岸走走而已
相较于欧洲人来说，美洲人的海上贸易与地中海贸易更具可比性
that's not true, ancient rome had contact with china.
这不是事实，古罗马就与中国有过接触。
a lot of historians tried to answer the questions.
the short of it is: eurasia had some great animals and grain. wheat is easy to grow and feeds a lot of people. cattle can be used as labor and to eat. horses are also great for labor and transportation. chicken are a great source of food. these are things americans did not have. these basically gave europeans excess wealth and a lot of time to develop new technologies. by the time america and europe started to interact, europe was farther ahead in tech so this let them dominate and colonize americans.
许多历史学家试图回答这些问题。
简而言之就是：欧亚大陆有一些伟大的动物和谷物。小麦很容易种植，可以养活很多人。牛可以作为劳动力，也可以作为食物。马也非常适合劳动和运输。鸡肉是很好的食物来源。这些都是美洲人所没有的。这些基本上给了欧洲人超额的财富和大量的时间来开发新技术。当美洲和欧洲开始互动时，欧洲在科技方面遥遥领先，这让他们能够统治和殖民美洲。
cahokia was a city in north america which was at its greatest between 1050 and 1200 ce, it hosted an estimated 40,000 people, more than the city of london at the time.
卡霍基亚是北美的一座城市，在公元 1050 年至 1200 年期间达到鼎盛，估计居住着 40,000 人，比当时的伦敦市还要多。